New Gartner Survey, Celonis Invest, Roboyo, etc.

Nico

Hi, I'm Nico. Two and a half years ago, I founded Bots and People to educate people about process automation. Before I worked in consulting and have lots of experience in process automation, optimization, management and automation.

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Andreas

Yeah. Hi, I'm Andreas. I'm joining Nico here for our podcast. I have basically a background in finding a coe for process automation. RPA and AI. At Adidas, I worked in consulting and then now basically joined the technology side. So I've seen the full circle, and I'm here together with Nico to talk about the gossip and the most interesting things in the world of process automation.

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Nico

Hello and welcome back to the Automation Insider Podcast with Nico and Andreas. I know it's been a while, but this had a reason, correct? Andreas. Where have you been all the time?

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Andreas

Yeah Nico, I've been on a trip through the US. So basically it was, I would say, very much customcustomer-relateder related, but I was the also looking for spots where I might live in future.

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Nico

Okay. Can you tell more about it? What have you done?

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Andreas

I've visited many big companies and basically had a look at where they are in their transformation journeys. Different kinds of transformation. And this was really interesting. So you can feel a little bit of a difference to the, I would say, the European market that we are in here. Yeah, you can feel that. I would say, especially coming from Germany. That kind of discipline around processes. It's maybe not as high as we would like to have it sometimes, but it's pretty much there. And I think there is a different kind of process awareness and process centricity existing in the US. Or rather not so much. I had multiple discussions about if I fixed my process, am I then less creative? I would say, there's a difference between a creative culture and doing something creative and be, I would say, aware of how you execute some of your main processes and how you create value for your customers. So this was pretty interesting. I was on the East Coast first, in Philadelphia and around Pennsylvania, then moved to the west, basically the whole west from San Diego Los Angeles up to basically Portland, Oregon, and Seattle, Washington, and then I was flying back to Philadelphia again.

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Andreas

I was one week in New York for Fashion Week for some big fashion events, and then in Orlando for a conference. I've visited Florida, and now I'm back, and I have a big jet lag.

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Nico

I didn't know that you are such a big fashion fan, Andy.

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Andreas

Yeah. from my side rather not so much from the designer side, but more really from the fashion company side. In the end, we talked a lot about the technologies to come. About customer experience, consumer experience, about how you build a store. We visited multiple flagship stores of big companies, not only fashion, also all over retail. We looked at how the flagship stores are. We looked into how Starbucks is building their basic environment. So there was lots of great stuff and maybe an interesting takeaway from there. So with all the big technologies in the stores, you would assume a flagship store of Adidas, there's a lot of AR VR in there and nice technologies you can interact with. And you go in and you have basically your app and it's interacting with the store. Act,ually there was at that point in time the US open tennis and there was a ping pong table in there. And that was the most disruptive thing in the whole store, because it was bringing the people away, out of Facebook, Instagram, TikTok out of their phones, dropping it, stepping aside and playing ping pong and having direct connections with people.

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Andreas

And people were entering that store only to play a little bit of ping pong. So in the end, in a work where everything is digital, the disruption was actually something to grab.

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Nico

Also table tennis is not a new concept for offices and so on. To relax a little bit we have also a kicker table in our office, for example. Yeah, interesting that it attracts people.

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Andreas

I think that was my trip. It was pretty hot. So basically Saturday when I came home, I dropped from 30 something degrees in Florida to rainy Munich. You can't even go to the October Fest because it's raining all the time. It's a big change. I flew back to Munich and now I enjoy autumn with a cup of tea. So everything is fine. But Nico, you also have been on vacation. So what did you do all that time while I was in the US?

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Nico

Yes, I was wondering if you dropped directly from the US to the October Fest and have that very tough contrast, but obvio,usly because of the rain not yet.

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Nico

I was in Mallorca relaxing a little bit from tough founder times. This time I was pretty good in not working too much. Of course there were some little things I needed to do, but most of the time I could really recharge my batteries, which is super important. And the rest of the time I was completely busy,wok, because I have the feeling that the companies wake up from their summer vacation somehow. So you can really feel it that companies are very interested right now in talking about their automation agenda, talking about their automation initiatives. I like it. Of course it's pretty cool because it's generating business.

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Andreas

I think you also launched a new format at Bots & People on LinkedIn and it has something to do with the podcast today, right? So maybe you give us an intro to the new automation magazine.

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Nico

Exactly. Yeah. So we have launched our Automation Mag. The second episode is already out. The first episode of the Automation Mag or the first version went live on - let me check - on the 9 September and the second one on the 23 September. The goal with the Automation Mag is quite similar to the goal of the Insider Podcast, which means collecting news from the automation market, collecting news from the top influencers from the automation branch, and also talking about interesting topics around automation. We have also a category for the top three LinkedIn postings around automation.

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Andreas

So who gets the shoutout from your team for that?

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Nico

That's Mike. So Mike is also right now listening to us and cutting this episode and also doing all the great content that Bots & People is releasing. So big shout out at this point to Mike. And one thing: Of course usually we are supposed to research news from the automation market. This time it was more challenging for Mike, because he researched basically all the topics, because we were in the US and on holiday and doing other stuff. So all the things were researched by Mike. In the future, we will have more of a balance between researching some stuff. But yeah, let's start with the content. The first Automation Mag was released on 9 September. So the news is not brand new but really cool and still hot. The first one is that - you saw it probably on LinkedIn - an artificial intelligence won an arts competition. Have you seen that, Andy?

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Andreas

Yeah, I've seen that. This shows how far that can go. It really shows how beautiful pictures can be and how professional they can look. At the first glance, you can't see that it's not done by a human. So you really think it's a really great artist, it's a really great picture and you don't imagine that it's done by technology, but that basically shows how far it's going. And I think it's debunking an old myth that is not true anymore. We always said: "Okay, in the end, automation and AI will replace the repetitive things, but the creative things will always stay. I think we are now a little step further. I don't want to say that automation will replace everything, I think we talked multiple times about that. But it shows that there's also a creative space where technology and AI can play.

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Andreas

And what does it mean for the artists of the future? Will that be taken over by technology? I think it's quite nice as a competition, as a coexistence, you're also not having only one artist today, you have multiple. And in the future, there might be technology artists and human artists, and it might be a coexistence. And there always can be a little bit of hype around one or the other and basically like in the introduction with the ping pong table. In a world where everything is digital, I think there's always room for the disruption back to the other world.

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Nico

Yeah, there was always art supported somehow by technology, if you want, like camcorder or smartphones are also devices and technology supports which can produce art and take pictures of something. So I think it's just another stage of evolution in Bots and People working together to also create art as they do in business.

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Andreas

Yeah, absolutely.

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Nico

Okay, let's come to the next news. We have a lot to cover Andy today. The next one is that Celonis raised money. So they've been already an Unicorn before, which means that they are worth over 10 billion. And now they raised one more billion on a variation of 13 billion US dollars. What have you heard of that financing round?

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Andreas

So I think we need to break it down a bit. Number one, there is a lot of new money, but we maybe need to look into how this money is split up, because in the end, this is not a normal financing round. If you look into it, 40% of it, so 400 million basically is a real investment. And basically, the remaining part, 60% of it, is a loan. And we also need to look into where is this coming from? It's coming from Qatar, from basically the Emirates, and we need to look into the valuation itself. So it's going up from 11 billion to 13 billion, and now we can maybe break it down. So, number one, let's start with the valuation going up from 11 to 13 billion.

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Andreas

There are multiple things to consider. Number one, if you would have talked two years ago, before the Ukraine war, we would have said: "That's not a lot! It's only a small step forward." But you have seen over the last years that all the technology companies struggle, that the valuations are going down. We have podcast episodes on that. The multiples are going down. And from that point of view, it's still a step forward.

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Andreas

But we need to see, if the valuation is given somehow on the overall sum, or at least not declared, how this valuation is basically reflecting on this part of investment and on the loan and basically taking such a financing round with 60% of loan also shows there is a need for capital. So now you can think about the need for capital, why? Because maybe - that is my interpretation of things - there was an IPO plan, but the IPO is shifting from the plan because now it's not the right point of time. And that's why there is an intermediate period basically upcoming, where you need more cash in the bank. And that's in the end, from my perspective, it's all about. It's in the end just making sure that Celonis can still grow, that it has enough money, enough cash in the bank to support that growth and in the end covering that kind of extended period to IPO. And that's what I'm reading into it.

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Nico

Yeah, I can underline this. You can see that there were not the biggest PR activities around it. You only find very small articles around it. And for example, that 600 million is also more that Celonis can make use of it when they want to do big investments, for example, acquisitions. So it's underlining what you say. They want to still keep their growth, they want to still have the opportunities, but they also want to win some time until it's a better time to do the IPO. That's awesome.

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Andreas

Nico, you can add some words as a founder, because in the end, you know, in such a growth period and how aggressive the marketing is - in a positive way - how aggressive the marketing of Celonis is and how much people they already have. So there is a lot of marketing costs behind it. There is a lot of people cost behind. So they need cash to support this.

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Nico

Of course, yeah, they need the cash and also another sign is: Right now, every founder knows that since the 23. of August. So it's one month ago that Salonis announced this. But every founder knows that right now it's not the best time to raise money. If you can, you will wait. Of course, probably such a deal they will start months before. So it might be also that they started already last year, or in winter with the discussions where the situation was still better. But usually, you would hold back with raising money because it's right now, the multiples, the valuations of the companies, it's much lower than it has been a few months ago.

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Andreas

And then it's a question, how long can you wait? And can you wait it out and when do you think this will improve? And if you don't believe that it will improve significantly in the near future and you will basically have a need for cash in the near future, then you need to do something. And as I've read, I'm not 100% sure, but the articles that I read, basically the 600K loan, they are based on demand. I think you also mentioned it, Nico, though that does not mean that they need to take it, but they can take it if they need. So it's basically giving them options. And options are always good.

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Nico

Yeah, so I hope that Celonis can further grow and be in the best position to do the IPO then in some months or years. Let's see what the economical situation brings. The next topic is that there is a new Gartner survey. We love new Gartner surveys because it gives away a lot of insights into the branch and this time it has the title CFOs are focusing on automation investments. What is really interesting right now: Investments are more restricted than in the last month. So I have seen in many companies that also the decision making processes are longer and that you have to ask the CFO for many decisions, investment decisions. But this Gartner survey says that the top investment for CFOs and CEOs right now is back office operations automation.

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Andreas

Yeah. So I think it's always very important to look a bit closer because there is a lot of automation. There is this big no code/low code space and within that you could say is this all RPA or is there something else? And even if you look beyond this no code/low code in space, I think there's a lot of at the moment implementation of bigger systems from CRM over procurement systems or even ERP transformations. So there are lots of things ongoing and all of that has to do with automation. And is automation at the core, more or less? But when you really look into basically the top drivers of it and you look into back office operations automation, you can assume there is a big part low code/no code and a big part RPA in that. So that means there's still a drive of that topic.

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Andreas

But if you go basically deeper into operating automation, manufacturing, warehousing, transportation, I would say there you already will find the need for way more sophisticated technologies. If you want to do manufacturing automation or warehousing, it's not only done with the bot, there might be also some potential for RPA. But in this space I think we need to say automation is overall a big topic, independent from the technology that's below and there is a lot of investment into that. And I think that's what we can read. Also what I'm a bit surprised is that still I would say lots of back office topics are at the top. I like that. We also find some analytics topics in like number two is pricing optimization, analytics. So that's coming out of the analytics world and I think it's a very good thing. What I still think there is more potential about is all the kind of digital ecommerce, customer service, digital marketing. We find it rather on the bottom of the list and I think there's still a lot of potential in this space.

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Nico

Yeah, I think it's because the companies think you can see it for the top three back office automation, pricing optimization, strategic sourcing. Basically: "Hey, how can we be more efficient money wise, how can we optimize our pricing to have a short increase of the income side?" But also "How can we improve our sourcing to have a decrease on our cost side?" And then of course the automation to be more efficient for the current situation makes completely sense. But of course what you say, topics like digital marketing, lead generation promotion, it's also technology and it will make your company more valuable. So it's still important and the danger is probably that companies now put less effort in such topics and focus too much on just reducing costs and increasing.

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Andreas

I think it's also partially the mindset. So I think there's still a lot of companies who do it for FTE reduction and I think that is then only having a partial impact because you're only basically attacking one out of many value drivers. The other thing is this is easier to measure than basically a top line impact and that's why because you can't track it that easily back and because it's a business case upfront, it's also not that easy. I think it's always easier to say that's the time saving, that's the automation and that's the impact and that's why you are faster in setting up and approving that and making it happen. While I sometimes think it would be great to have the right investment at the customers because that can have a way bigger multiplier effect. And when you think about where your spending should go in a company, from a strategic thinking, your spending should go way more towards the customer than into the back office. In the back office you want to be as standard as possible. There's no reason that you or let's say this way, there's no reason that company A in Germany, in the same industry, then company B in France is doing finance way much different if you're a global company.

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Andreas

But if you want to differentiate at the customer, there is a need to do something a little bit sweet and special. And that's why I think it's very important that we are streamlined and that we have the right investments and the right focus in the back office and we still need to be clever in our investments basically towards the customer. But this is where we can have a way bigger impact and that's why I think we should not leave that out and not only focus on FTE, but also focus on the Consumer.

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Nico

Completely Agree. And let's then go from the topic of Cost Saving to some Company which is on Shopping Spree, which is Roboyo. Roboyo was during the last year already acquiring at least since they got their private equity investment, acquiring a lot of other agencies and companies like for example AKOA, which was I think the most prominent one. And now they were active again and bought two. Another consultancies. One is Lean Consulting and one is WeMake. Andreas, you also know Roboyo. What is the strategy behind buying those two companies?

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Andreas

Yeah, so maybe shortly about my past and present with Roboyo, I think my present is not that active. I hope that we can revitalize that a bit. That's of course, a little bit out of my Deloitte history because then you're in a certain kind of competition with Roboyo. But before, in my role at Adidas, I worked with Roboyo. So. I think they're a great company. They've always helped me a lot, they have great talent and they have developed into, from my perspective, the best, I would say automation focused Service Partner that you can have, because they're really specialized in that. They know how to do that and they have, I would say, built a great company. So a shout out to Nico, to Christian and to Sven. They are all three great people, great guys. And they have built a really great company there.

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Andreas

Now they, I think, are seeing the trend that in the end, automation as a lone standing topic is something that's evolving and it's evolving more into this whole space of business process transformation, where we have the RPA in the automation world, where we also have process mining and analytics basically joining in, but also more into that kind of lean and business process management world, to focus on the improvement of processes and not only on the technology side of it.

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Andreas

And in the End, that is what, from my perspective, this acquisition is for. So we have two basically groups that are joining in. One is, I think, centered around the UK. And one is centered around Portugal with great talent. I would even assume that this is maybe not even the end of it, because this is giving them a really good footprint in Europe. But they're already a global company, so I think there will also be some kind of an expansion of that footprint, maybe in the US. At a certain point of time. And I would say, they will further invest into that and broaden their portfolio. Still stay a focused player around automation, but enhancing it without losing the focus by, I would say, cornerstones that make sense. Like this process improvement, like this lean component. And I think this is a very good deal for them to go forward.

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Nico

Yeah, I think also on the paper, those two companies getting one with lean focus, like Lean Six Sigma. It's also a pretty cool add on to the process automation capabilities and also business process management in general as well. It goes somehow in the same direction those two companies. If I go to the websites of these companies, it looks very classy, let's say. So what I find very interesting is also how big the companies are and how they will fit in the more now, more modern looking brand of Roboyo and how they will merge with them and deliver end to end services with those companies together, or how they bring it together to one portfolio That I find really exciting. And let's see.

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Andreas

To be honest from the outside, it looks like Roboyo has already done a pretty decent job with acquiring other companies out of the RPA space. So I think when you think about the AKOA transaction and how the companies merged. So I think, I'm pretty sure that how I know the founders of Roboyo and how we know also basically the founders that or the senior management parts of the acquisition part. For example, when you look at Tim from AKOA, they are all great people and I think they also look at that. So they would not do that deal if they wouldn't see a fit also from a personal perspective. And that's why I think that will be quite seamless and they will go onto the branding, but they will do that not in, I would say, big chump. I think they will do that in a very healthy way, how they did this with the other acquisitions. And I would like to actually bring in another point, because I think this one they will tick for sure, but what I can see, and I think that's really interesting when you look into WeMake, they're not only doing BPM, they're also doing a certain kind of software development, cyber security and other things.

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Andreas

And maybe Nico, you can jump in and say a bit, because you know that from your company, that in the end, Roboyo is not only a classical consulting anymore, but they also develop towards a product company and that's necessary for being scalable and then acquiring basically also skill sets in the direction of software development of Cyber Security. That can also be an asset on the product side or Nico?

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Nico

Yeah, exactly. So I know it already from my time at PwC that the Holy Grail for consulting companies and you know, probably you as well Andy from Deloitte, is also building products to increase your margin and have also a second pillar of business beside the professional services. I can see that they are capitalizing on that. On the other hand, it's super hard to balance those two business models as well, because if you have consultants, you want to get those consultants on consulting jobs. And if you build a product, you want to invest in building a product and those people will be not utilized, so to say, from customer projects. And you have to invest in a product and then sell it to a customer and get the return on a later stage, which is very hard to balance in one organization.

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Andreas

Yeah, absolutely. I can only support that from the Deloitte experience.

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Nico

Yeah, but it sounds all very reasonable and let's see what happens and I see it also as a great add on to the portfolio.

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Nico

Okay, then we have the next topic on our list, which is the Gartner Report, hype cycle for artificial intelligence.

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Andreas

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff in there. In the end it's really interesting that you see how things are moving through the hype cycle bit faster and some a bit slower. What in the end caught my eye is the one on the left side basically just coming in, because there is artificial general intelligence and in so far. I'm really interested in what's coming up there because everything I know around artificial intelligence is really focused on a specific use case. So when you look into, yeah you have an OCR in Natural Language processing behind and you want to scan some invoices and documents and classify them and basically process them. Yeah, this is really a specific use case, because the same kind of technology. What it can't do, it can't deal with, let's say, pricing like we had it before. And if you have basically an algorithm and you have a machine learning model that optimizes your pricing, it vice versa cannot do the other thing. And when you look now through, there are all the things in the hype cycle are, I would say more or less, sometimes they are on a bit of a higher level. Like computer vision is very general, so there are multiple use cases below or some are really already a bit more, I would say, a bit more specific, but they all are specific use cases.

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Andreas

And when you look now in there, for example, autonomous vehicles there, there you already need a combination of multi of them. You need a combination of lots of sensors, of lots of different decisions that need to be made and automated. So you need different kinds of technologies. But now thinking about this kind of end goal of the general artificial intelligence that can solve everything, I'm really curious how this could look like. And the only way how I can imagine it actually, it needs to be a combination out of the different parts. So it needs to be basically all the elements that you need. The single technologies to make a single decision to solve a single problem, but then combine, like basically, some kind of industry 4.0 where all devices are connected. In this case all AI parts are somehow connected and they make up a bigger thing in the end. I can't imagine it now, but it's interesting that this is already incoming at that point of time where we still struggle with all the single use cases.

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Nico

Yeah, what caught my eye as well is that so many topics are right now on the either peak of inflated expectation or just an innovation trigger. Sometimes it feels like the topic AI is already there since always and topics like for example NLP. I would have said we are at a pretty decent level now but if you look at this curve it's still five to ten years to go for many of the topics, like also smart robots.

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Andreas

And it's not one that made it already to the plateau of productivity. So that we're clear about that. So everything is basically still early stage - more or less - there are some that are getting closer but we have way more of the majority in the innovation trigger and in the inflated expectations and that's more or less the marketing hype. I would personally describe it like that and I think that is also how it feels for lots of people. So for lots of people it feels like: it's big slides but the reality is not yet where the slides are.

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Nico

Maybe we can discuss that at the end already of this episode. There's one of the top postings that we featured in the Automation Mag. It was a posting from Petrol Barracosa, who was on fire in the last weeks. I had the honor talking to him a few weeks ago and what he did before the job at Takeda and ramping up the automation upscaling concept, just amazing! There are also some videos with UiPath, where he is discussing the case. And we also plan another podcast episode with him. And here he has taken a graphic which is from originally from Ralph, so from another great influencer.

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Andreas

Ralph is always on fire.

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Nico

Which shows the level of confidence on the y axis and the experience with automation on the x axis and then it shows such to say the emotions that a company goes through when implementing a center of excellence. And it's quite similar to the gardener hype cycle.

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Andreas

It is, but I think we should not read it because it's really funny when you see it. And I think guys, go to LinkedIn, find Pedro Berrocoso. I think we will link him for sure in the post of the episode.

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Andreas

And also give the credit to Ralph and have a look at it, because I think it's on the one side funny on the other side it really feels like that.

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Nico

It doesn't come into my mind, but there is this psychological concept which has a similar concept, where you think: If you don't know anything you are really confident and then if you learn more, then you get less confident and in the end, if you know more from time to time you get a little bit more confident, but never so confident than when you didn't know anything.

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Andreas

Yeah, absolutely. I think this is a dilemma that always the "most competent" people are the people who are not an expert in it. But this is how it is.

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Andreas

Before we jump to our learning at the end of the episode, let's give a remarkable quotation from Pedro: "When the hype hits really hard, you know that there is no shortcut to awareness, experience and mastery."

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Andreas

And I think in the end, that's it. So there is basically a hype. And you think now: "Come on, we do it and we already have understood it because we have a slide and we have seen a presentation." But then you still need to go through that journey of awareness, experience and mastery. You still need to experience it, you need to do it. And even now, basically being in a technology company, I need to say it's one thing to sell it, it's another thing to make it successful. And I think that's really important. And there are so many people out there who are exactly on this left side, because they have understood the concept, but that does not mean that they have already gone the whole way through.

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Andreas

So you start, you have the technology live and now you basically need to do a use case and the change management and everything related to it and make it happen in your environment with not always ideal support, with lots of resistance, with lots of things that are in the way of distracting you. And I think when you have done that, this experience, this is something, this is so valuable and that's leading you in the end to that last point where the confidence is still high, but there's always also that kind of, I would say, a little bit of respect, because, you know, it's always hard work to get it done.

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Nico

Really love that, Andy. I think it links perfectly to your learning.

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Andreas

Actually, my learning is also about respect, but it's also about new work. So I'd really like to say I've been in the US and I've met a lot of people and I've met a lot of customers and I would say digital friends and colleagues and lots of them I've not seen for a long time or never seen in person. And I need to say, it's so valuable to sometimes meet with the people. It's a different kind of exchange, it's different than to be on a team or on a zoom call and I'd like to link that over to new work because everyone says: "We don't need the office anymore." Sorry, I don't believe that. I have led a global team and I know that there is a lot of things possible with the technology that we have. But sometimes you need to meet, sometimes you need to drink a beer and sometimes you need to talk not about work and you need to maybe have a walk together and you need to have a common experience and that's tightening up the relationship. And there are also things that are better done in person and in the end, that's why my belief is: It's a combination.

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Andreas

Sometimes you need to be with the people and some things you can do in the remote way, but it's a combination. And that does not take away the flexibility, that does not take away any kind of freedom, but it's important. So I would basically like to pledge for not being on the side of the extreme side of you always need to be in the office, but also not to be on the extreme side. You never need to be in the office. I think there's a healthy balance and that's what I personally would strive for.

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Nico

This is super, super cool learning and probably also something that was best to experience on your journey to the US meeting people.

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Andreas

Absolutely.

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Andreas

So Nico, maybe we finish with your learning the episode.

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Nico

I want to also add on to this effect of being confident and not so intelligent, which is called the Dunning-Kruger effect. I still wanted to give you that information, look it up, it's super cool.

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Nico

My learning. Initially, I had another one, but I wanted to switch because there's another psychological paradox I heared of in a podcast. It's called the Abbey Lane Paradox. Do you know it?

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Andreas

No, never heard of it.

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Nico

It is the paradox of the "management of agreement", which means that it might happen that a group of people is doing something and agrees on doing something. But nobody wanted to do it. It comes from a psychologist in Texas who decided on a hot afternoon to drive to Abbey Lane for dinner, which is a very hot and dusty way to Abbey Lane. And everybody says: "Yes, a great idea!", because they think he wants to go. But he only asked to go to Abbey Lane, because he thought that his family wanted to go. And when they came back, they were discussing and found out that actually nobody wanted to go.

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Andreas

That's also interesting. I think it has a little bit of similarity with groupthink and we don't go into that now, but I think it's something that there might be some people out there who have experienced that. So I thought you want and you thought I wanted to. We both did it and now we're both unhappy.

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Nico

Yeah, and you can transfer to business and let's say the head of automation saying let's save costs with automation because I think the CFO wants it and the CFO thinks, yeah then let's do it. But actually if you would have talked more to each other and elaborated what is the reason why you want to invest in automation? It's actually nobody wants to just cut costs.

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Andreas

Yeah, I think this is a really good statement. So it's basically a pledge for more communication and honesty then let's try to move that into practice, okay?

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Nico

Yeah. Thank you, Andy, for this wonderful opposite. I think it's a great start after the holiday, and we will be back in two weeks from now.

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Andreas

Thank you, everyone. Bye.

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